Transcript with Show Notes Embedded:
Elizabeth Yanev: We lived the hurried life in the US for so long. For us, people ask why did you move here and it seems so corny to say it, but really: la bella vita. We really wanted that beautiful life where, for us, Milan is slow compared to New York. The Italians think that Milan is this really big, hurried city, which I think to their culture it is, but to us from New York, we’re like, this is really doable. We are so wired as Americans for instant gratification and one of the things I will say I love about Italy—which can be infuriating, but it’s one of the reasons we chose to move here at the same time—is the moments of pause that they have.
Kathy McCabe: This is Kathy McCabe. Welcome to the Dream of Italy podcast. You know me from the PBS Travel Series, Dream of Italy and the award-winning website and publication. Join me as we explore the sights and sounds of Bella Italia. From the canals of Venice to the piazzas of Puglia, from the fashion houses of Milan to the vineyards of Tuscany. Hop on, it’s going to be a great ride. Andiamo!
I’m Kathy McCabe of Dream of Italy and you may know by now we’re doing a series of podcasts about where to live in Italy now, where to move, where to retire. One place that’s always on my radar and is a really hot place to move is Milan. So we have spoken to a few people who have made the move to Milan and today we are talking to Elizabeth Yanev, who moved with her family. Elizabeth, welcome.
[01:48]
Elizabeth: Thank you for having me.
Kathy: Tell me a little bit about your life before you moved to Italy.
Elizabeth: My husband and I met almost 20 years ago in New York City, fresh out of college. We ended up staying there for almost 16 years. At the time I worked in fashion and my husband was working for a reinsurance company. We loved the city; we thought we were there forever. We ended up moving all over the city, traveled extensively throughout Europe and eventually got married and had a son who was born in New York.
At the time, I was working for Donna Karan Collection as a fabric manager, working with Italian fabrics, a ton of Italian vendors and a lot of Italian mills. My husband and I love to cook, so if you love to cook, probably the best thing you can do is learn to cook great, easy Italian food. We started traveling more and more to Italy. We always thought one day our dream would be to move to France. My husband studied there and lived there on and off for two years, so for us, it felt like an easy in to live abroad. But we realized we just kept going back more and more to Italy. We would go to France, we love it, lots of great friends there, but we just kept going back to Italy.
At the time, my husband had ended up switching careers. We ended up leaving New York City and went to the Lake Tahoe area. We were in Lake Tahoe for about three years. At that time, we decided we were done with this area, ready to make the big move. Our son at that point was six and we figured he’s not going to get any younger and he’d probably just get more angry if we moved him later in life. So we spent 2022 getting ready for the big move—looking at places to go, what are we going to do, where are we going to move. We realized that’s when we had free time, that’s where we ended up going.
At this point in my career, I no longer worked in fashion. I am currently an interior designer and have been doing that for 10 years.
[04:26]
Kathy: So the other woman, one of the other people we interviewed for Milan, is an interior designer as well, so I’d love to talk about why Milan for that. You’re working on your own, basically? You can work remotely? You can work from anywhere?
Elizabeth: I can work from anywhere. I actually started my company before we left New York and have restarted my business now twice. I started it in New York, restarted it again in Lake Tahoe and now here in Italy, I’m transitioning slowly over to doing projects both in the States and here in Italy.
Kathy: Do you do high-end residential or what do you do?
Elizabeth: High-end residential and I have some experience with hospitality as well.
Kathy: Because Italy is booming. There are so many Americans buying houses, there are so many new hotel projects. I would think it might actually be really good.
Elizabeth: It is and we’ve had some really great experiences. Salone del Mobile, which I’m sure you’re familiar with, just happened. It’s one of the best things about Milan and as an interior designer living here, it’s just so wonderful to have everyone from essentially all over the world come to you. They are really the forefront of interior design for so many reasons. That being one of them. It’s an incredible space where people can collaborate and come together. Not only is the fair obviously great, but all the things that happen around the city around that time. So many designers feeling like they have this resource and so many hubs and headquarters, are attracted to it, besides the fact that Italy is inspiring in and of itself.
Kathy: And for listeners, viewers, it’s usually in April. I believe you can just sign up as a person to go to a lot of the events. There are a lot of long lines, but if you pre-book or reserve, is that a good tip?
[06:21]
Elizabeth: Yeah, it is. Well, Salone, the fair itself, is really for professionals, but the city now has this thing called Fuorisalone, which is exactly like what you’re describing. Events all around the city and no one wants to miss out because it’s such an opportunity for people to get together and see whatever it is that your business is doing. So even Range Rover will have an artist come in and make an installation. Everyone in the city participates. And so yes, you can come from the general public and just book private villas that don’t ever open and get tours of these amazing art installations from all over. Like down to Louis Vuitton, Hermes, Prada, all of these amazing places.
Kathy: So how did you… what visa or what situation do you have that allowed you to move to Italy?
Elizabeth: When we were thinking about moving here, we realized it was going to be Italy and we felt like Europe was our oyster because my husband is a Bulgarian citizen. When my son was born, we got him the citizenship as well. So my husband and my son, it was really easy. They were able to just go to the police department and register and get their carta di identità. I, on the other hand, made the difficult American who has to go through the bureaucratic process. I will say I’m very lucky; it is a little bit easier because I am tied to my husband and my son. But there is a lot of paperwork involved in this. It isn’t. You and I were saying just before it started, it isn’t all dolce vita. Italy in particular really loves their bureaucracy.
Kathy: I don’t know whether to say this, I’ve said this to friends: Italy will break you. But then you just get back up again.
Elizabeth: It is. If you can survive going to the police department and the post office, which is a whole other ballgame. For a lot of Americans, they don’t realize that the post office in Italy is the center of life. No one goes there to mail packages; they go there to register their citizenship or take care of paying their bills. And so I think I found myself through this whole visa process at the post office, which by the way, in Italy is privately owned multiple times. And it’s a really fascinating system. And of course, you have to do it in the correct process. It took me.
So at the time were just about to move, we had hired a company to help us, a lawyer in Tuscany who was highly recommended just to help us figure out what paper needs to be filed in what order. And we ended up in New York. We were there visiting family before we literally had to move. And we get a notification from this lawyer that the Italians had just changed the law. And as opposed to come. Typically, the process previously had been you come into the country, you get your typical three month visa and then while you’re here, you apply for a stay.
Kathy: Apply while you’re there.
[09:27]
Elizabeth: Yeah. And then you can’t leave during the period until you’re approved. Well, this had completely changed. And you have to apply for a one year visa.
Kathy: I was wondering, when I asked you before, like a family reunification visa, I think, right?
Elizabeth: Yes.
Kathy: Oh, boy. And you didn’t have an appointment at a consulate?
Elizabeth: No, because this was 10 days before we moved. So we ended up. My husband was trying to call all over the. Where can we get to on the East Coast? How quickly can we get. Because we had to do it in America before I landed in Italy and have this one year visa. And once you get the one year visa, then while you’re here, you can apply for an up to five year visa. So no appointments were to be had on the east coast within many months on the East Coast. So we just picked up the phone and the person on the phone, it was the most unitalian, bureaucratic thing ever. They were like, yes, come tomorrow at 9am. Bring these five things. And we showed up in New York City on the Upper east side at the Italian consulate.
Kathy: Oh, you got into the New York one?
Elizabeth: Got into the New York one. I mean, I don’t want to give away all the tips, but honestly, I mean.
Kathy: Well, tell me this, when you call the number, someone answered?
Elizabeth: Somebody answered. I will say Italy is kind of old school in that sense. And I don’t know if it’s the Italian consulate, but I will say no.
Kathy: In Italy, you still do a lot by phone.
Elizabeth: Oh, for sure. And they love that, actual personal relationship.
Kathy: They love that. Yes.
Elizabeth: And so by just calling and being nice to them on the phone, they were like, “Yeah, no problem.”
Kathy: Big lesson for life. I find that too. You get more with the sugar or the honey.
Elizabeth: Exactly, exactly. And within a morning I went, I had my paperwork, I dropped off my passport. They called me at lunchtime. My passport had a visa in it, was ready to go for one year. And because my husband was. And I was going with my husband and my child, who were European citizens, I didn’t even need to pay the fee to have it done.
Kathy: Oh, wow.
[11:31]
Elizabeth: So, when we got here, we went through the whole process of getting the five year visa. And I will say it worked. We thought pretty seamlessly and by the time the whole thing came around and we, here’s your, my, your official card that says you can now live in Italy. It’s the carta di identità. And I actually have two cards. It’s the permesso di soggiorno, which is the Permission to Live and then the carta di identità, which is my ID card. And we thought everything was great. This is fantastic. And then the lawyers call us up and they tell us, “So it’s Italy after all. And when they registered you all as three unique individuals living in one, under one roof. So you have to, we have to go back in and apply for you all to be unified as a family.”
Kathy: It would not be easy in Italy. It cannot go that smoothly, it’s. Honestly, I feel like it’s part of the test.
Elizabeth: It is. And there is a test to bureaucracy and how much can we push you to be? How tough are you to be able to live here and it’s all worth it. Are there tears? Absolutely. Are there days that I’m frustrated and. Absolutely. Did we end up getting it sorted out? Yes. Did it take almost two years? Yes. But we’re here. We’re a unified family.
Kathy: So I’m really curious how you decided on Milan. Was it Milan from the start or did you go through a process?
Elizabeth: Well, so we, like I had mentioned, we had been traveling to Italy a lot and we realized that was where were feeling really happy. And it just made us. We love Sicily. We love all. I mean really anywhere in Italy. We love all over. But we’re still career people. I have my own interior design business as I mentioned and my husband at the time was working with the company out of Zurich. Our son, being young, we really wanted him to go to a bigger school, an international school. He came not speaking Italian, so we didn’t want to stick him somewhere just right off the bat, not speaking the language. And so it was by taking all these factors into consideration, you start realizing, well, what are your options? And so it came down to Milan. It was an easy for me for interior design for my husband of the ease of getting to Europe, which is a Zurich, excuse me, which is a four hour train ride.
Kathy: Yeah.
[13:53]
Elizabeth: It made it so much easier. And the biggest factor, weren’t sure if it was going to be Milan. My husband has a tendency to do this thing when we, when every time we’ve moved he sends me by myself because he had decided in his mind that this is what we’re going to do. So he sends me by myself to go handle logistics. And it’s really smart because then I get to examine where we’re going to move on my own and do my own thing. And so weren’t quite set and I came in the fall of the year before we moved and I had made all these appointments with schools all over the city. And I said, obviously the most important thing is getting our son settled. Because we’re pretty flexible. We have the luxury of being able to really work remotely and from anywhere. But our son being settled is the most important thing. And I fell in love with the American school. And I just really thought that this was an amazing place. Over 70 different nations are represented there.
Kathy: Wow!
Elizabeth: It’s incredible, incredible place. It’s not just Americans and Italians. Yes, there’s a ton of Italians actually.
Kathy: That’s nice that there are Italians.
Elizabeth: Actually, that’s the majority. It’s not. It’s not Americans, it’s over 30%. And it’s been an incredible experience. And when I realized that my son could be settled and we got in to the American school, I was like, that’s it. This is where we’re going to be. Because I really, like I said, I fell in love with the community. I fell in love with the people who have been coming to Milan and are attracted to Milan and who are going to this school, who have come from all over the world, which is an example, I think, of what’s happening in Milan right now anyway.
Kathy: It is fascinating. It is people. So it’s definitely ultra high net worth people. There’s a, there’s a contingent of that it’s become more attractive for tax reasons for a lot of the Brits are moving, but then it’s just regular people. And I feel like, I mean, you’re the one who should speak of it. But one of the reasons we’re including Milan in this list is it’s having this renaissance.
Elizabeth: It is. And I’ll say it’s been so fascinating. We have, I mean, not just at the American school, we have a large community of Americans who come and go and what they love is they just want to come. They’re here for a year, three years, two years and they’re just like, we want to come and experience life abroad. And they’ve also chosen Milan just to have that one or two year experience away and to give that to their kids, to their children. And a lot of Americans are doing that. And so we have some really good friends. It’s so interesting. It’s a whole other.
[16:26]
Kathy: The world has changed so much in the last few years. We could never do this. You could never have. Maybe you have one parent who could work remotely, but two. And so I was actually, when I found you, I was looking to interview people, a couple family who had come and had free rein on where they were going. Who just did it. Not because the husband’s Italian or, there’s just. So, you’re seeing now are you planning to stay or. It’s just. We’ll see.
Elizabeth: We have no plans to leave. We really like it here. We are very happy. I mean there’s the culture shock. I’ve never lived abroad. My husband, having lived abroad and having that experience, kind of understood what it took to do this. I definitely had more of those moments, standing in the Grocery store, just trying to buy food and being like, but the flour isn’t with the baking supplies and, just simple things that we are not accustomed to that are just normal here. Like, if the flour is not with the baking supplies, it’s actually in the pasta aisle. Because no one uses flour to bake. They use it to make pasta and pizza. It’s just little things like that take. If you have the right mindset and you’re having a good day, it’s fun to learn and explore. If you’re having a bad day, as we all do, it can be really tough. Being patient with the process and allowing yourself a year of transition is important. But we have no plans to leave. We really like it here. We are very, very happy. The culture shock… my husband, having lived abroad and having that experience, kind of understood what it took to do this. I definitely had more of those moments, standing in the grocery store just trying to buy food and being like, “But the flour isn’t with the baking supplies.” Simple things we are not accustomed to that are just normal here—like the flour is in the pasta aisle because no one uses flour to bake, they use it to make pasta and pizza. It’s little things like that. If you have the right mindset and you’re having a good day, it’s fun to learn and explore.
Kathy: It’s another stressor.
[17:48]
Elizabeth: It’s another stressor. And so, being patient with the process and I think, allowing yourself a year of transition. But we have no plans. I mean, even the first year after moving here, with all the frustrations and all the headaches and all the bureaucracy, we still are finding these mostly moments of joy. We lived the hurried life in the US for so long. For us, people ask why did you move here and it seems so corny to say it, but really: la bella vita. We really wanted that beautiful life where, for us, Milan is slow compared to New York. The Italians think that Milan is this really big, hurried city, which I think to their culture it is, but to us from New York, we’re like, this is really doable. This is another step down in terms of intensity without leaving culture, restaurants, bars and activities throughout the city, like the Olympics and Salone. It’s been a really nice balance of location because we are close to the mountains. My husband and my son love to ski. 45 minutes, you’re at the closest ski mountain. It’s amazing.
Kathy: Beautiful, all the northern mountains, the Dolomites. It’s so affordable compared to skiing in Colorado.
Elizabeth: It’s gorgeous.
Kathy: Oh and it’s affordable. I currently live in Colorado and it’s way more. I don’t really ski, but it’s so much more affordable than even skiing in Colorado.
Elizabeth: Oh, my God, Yes. I have a really good girlfriend in Denver and she was telling me what it costs her family to get ski passes. For the cost of one ski pass, I could buy all three of us ski passes and food for the entire year.
Kathy: It’s interesting and it’s definitely a trend where Americans are even going to Japan now to ski because Colorado or Northern California is just so expensive. So it’s, something I noticed about Italy. It’s just. It feels sometimes like the beach is accessible I mean, just the geography of it. You always have a coastline not that far and then the mountains. Even if you’re living in Southern Italy, you can get up there. There’s a lot of access to nature. So I have so many questions. How did you find your apartment? And did you buy? Did you rent? I mean, this is the hardest part, I think. But let’s see.
Elizabeth: It is. I made the first trip in the fall of the year before we moved here to come and just to visit the school. When we realized we got in and we had signed them up, I was like, I guess we should find a place to live. Being an interior designer, I came on a trip by myself, spent seven days here. I worked with a company that the lawyers we were working with recommended. My plan was to rent. I saw 26 apartments in four days. We just stacked the appointments as much as possible.
Kathy: I admire that!
[21:03]
Elizabeth: We are renting. I found one of the places. Everyone said be prepared, places go so quickly here, you need to have all your documentation ready. I put my New York hat on and I’m like, okay, money’s going to be in the right place, all my bank files are going to be here, I’m going to be prepared to hand everything over at a moment’s notice. I put in an application on this rental place that we found that I really fell in love with. They said, “Okay, give us three days, we’ll send you the application. Once you fill out the application, give us 10 days and we’ll let you know.” There’s a standard lease form here. The whole thing was a really fascinating process. There’s a standard term, it’s called a 4+4.
Kathy: Explain what that is for the audience.
Elizabeth: So a 4+4 is when you sign a lease for four years and at the four-year mark, you have the option to renew for the same price for an additional four years. So that means you can stay in your place for eight years, which is amazing when you think about it, for the same price. So we worked in a four plus four rental agreement. And the way that they advertise, it feels like they advertise the apartments similar to the US, by month, but your contract for rental is laid out by the year and you pay quarterly. And this is very standard. So it’s a very interesting. So there’s a little bit of math that you have to do to figure it out and why this is the process that no one is. It’s, so you think, okay, this is my monthly rent. That’s great. But that’s not actually what you’re paying.
Kathy: You have to pay it at the quarter. And then you. Did you use an. It was an agency.
Elizabeth: No, it was in Italy, I’ve realized you have to have a guy for everything.
Kathy: Oh, I know.
Elizabeth: You have to have a guy for everything.
Kathy: I have a guy for everything. I do a lot of work and filming.
[23:15]
Elizabeth: Yeah, you do. You’re absolutely correct. And so through the lawyer, they have this woman and she was not an agent, but she knew. She’s been living in Milan. She. I think she’s from northern Italy and she knew everyone who was an agent. And so they didn’t act as an agent because there are pretty strict rules about it, right? Yes, but I think she took a fee through. I think the agents paid her, but they, she showed me. That’s good.
Kathy: That’s good. The agents paid her.
Elizabeth: It was. It’s a very interesting process.
Kathy: Would you, Would you recommend her?
Elizabeth: Yes, I would recommend them, absolutely. And anyone who wants to write you and read and reach out, I’ll let you. Right.
Kathy: We could put it in the podcast notes. Because I think that’s, everyone needs a referral to somebody.
Elizabeth: 100% and these women who work with they’re just lovely and they know everyone. And so through working with her and she knew again, all of these different brokers and our apartment that we ended up renting and are currently living in, it was not actually even on the market yet when we got the list.
[24:17]
Kathy: That’s the thing. That’s what you need Someone who knows because there’s always something somewhere. And so I do know with the four by four because I’ve looked it into it. Usually you do have an out though, right?
Elizabeth: You do. And so we have the option to cancel the contract. No penalty, as long as it’s a six month notice cancel. So the laws in Italy, as I’m sure you’re aware, are very tenant friendly. So landlords are very hesitant to lease or rent an apartment to someone because like New York. But even stricter in terms of being kicking someone out in case they don’t pay rent. Because for example, if you have a child and you don’t pay rent, the law is on your side as the tenant because you have a child living in a house. So the landlord can just go years. And the court system and the civil. Trying to find a court date in the civil system.
Kathy: Yeah. And they’re very, Italians are very hesitant to, to rent a farm. They’re always a little suspicious, even if you seem like, hello, you have a job, you have, but so I think you always kind of need that introduction to somebody or a way in.
Elizabeth: But our landlord, I mean our landlord is a Milanese. He’s been, I think his, it’s a really fabulous old Milanese story. I think his mother’s family owned several buildings in the, in our block. And his family has always lived in this building for two generations. He grew up in my apartment that was combined with another apartment. Of course it’s been renovated since. But it’s just a very traditional story where they kind of continue to own it and they rent it out and. Because they don’t necessarily need a whole villa to live in. And that’s how I find a lot of people. The more and more I talk to people, who are renting. That’s their setup.
Kathy: Yes. What neighborhood are you in and do you like it? What do you like about it?
[26:20]
Elizabeth: Oh, I love our neighborhood. We are very close to the metro stop called Conciliazione. Okay. It’s on the red line. And if you’re familiar with Milan, for anyone listening, it’s wonderful because with a 20 minute walk, I’m at the Duomo. I’m very centered town. We are just down the street from Santa Maria delle Grazie and the Last Supper. And we love it because it’s super residential. And so we are really, we’ve got all the luxuries of the city. Around us, but we’re also around tons of people who just live. Live life. We’re not in a touristic neighborhood. We’re not in an Airbnb neighborhood. Tons of families, a lot of Milanese, a lot of international people. Really beautiful parks. The proximity to Sempione, which I think is underrated, personally. It’s just a beautiful park. We have two dogs and we take them every day to the park. And it’s. It’s just a really great area. And I think it’s. It’s really nice to find those pockets of residential in such a big bustling city that also has a touristic area to it. Right. Because I love the Duomo and I love Brera, but we get a little bit more space without being outside of town.
Kathy: Yes. How do the dogs like it?
Elizabeth: They love it. So one of them we actually brought from the States with us and the other one we’ve adopted since we’ve moved here.
Kathy: Oh, how did you find the one from Italy?
Elizabeth: The one from here? Well, we, sadly, one of our dogs, we had. We came here. We had to. And she passed away about a year ago. She was our elder. She was 15, 14 years old. And so about a. About eight months after she passed, were like, okay, I think we could start thinking about it. And we just. We found a rescue organization online. And there it’s again, it’s not like what I’m used to in the States. A rescue organization in the States you still pay an adoption fee. That was not the case here. They actually did come to our house. They wanted to make sure we lived, we didn’t have 20 other dogs. They were very serious.
Kathy: Very responsible.
[28:26]
Elizabeth: Very responsible. It was a really. It was a great experience. And actually we now have this dog. She’s a puppy now. And so the two dogs, they love it. They really do. They really enjoy it. And the one who came from the States, I think she’s. She’s just happy to be here. She loves Italy.
Kathy: Yeah. I brought my late dog twice to Italy and I swear it gave him six months more life. He just loved it. It’s just. You can take them anywhere.
Elizabeth: Well, that’s the thing. They get to be with you more. I mean, the only place we really. You can’t take dogs is the grocery store.
Kathy: Although in Tuscany and there’s many grocery stores you can in other parts of Italy. They have their own. Your own. So it was funny. My dog was blind, though. He was a terrier. He got he was just so alive. And they have. I would just remember specifically in Cortona, they had the Conad or the Coop special carts. If you’re bringing your dog in and I put him in a cart and remember, he’s blind. Well, he had never been. He gets in that supermarket, he’s like, thinks he has gone to heaven.
Elizabeth: Yes, of course.
Kathy: So there are some supermarkets, maybe not in Milan. And that was just funny to bring him in. Kind of distract, if your dog’s not used to it. Because he was like, “Oh, my God, chicken meat.” But it’s great. And then the Autogrills, I drove all over. You can. That’s the best thing because, if you’re alone and driving, you can take the dog in with you. So I love that. But I did. We’ll have to jump around because I have so many questions. So my thing is, I love Milan, but the air pollution gets to me. And so I’m wondering what your experience has been. And you’ve lived in New York, so it’s not like you never lived in the city. What do you think?
[30:13]
Elizabeth: No, but Milan, unlike New York, is in this bowl. So geographically, you’re surrounded on three sides by a ring of mountains. And there’s still a lot of work to be done here in terms of clean energy. And so Milan still burns fossil fuels, especially in the wit. In the winter. And so with the snowstorms and the clouds and the fog that come in from the mountains in the winter, it traps all of that burning fossil fuels, especially around the buildings. And it kind of contribute. Absolutely contributes to the. To the pollution. I find it worse in the winter than in the summer. Spring. Yeah.
Kathy: I was saying that when I went for the Olympics and it wasn’t that bad, but I really. I felt it where I was like, God, if I’m here for months in this. So, yeah, it is worse in the winter. What kind of things do you get? Do you get, you just feel tired or you just feel. Feel it in your sinuses or?
Elizabeth: A little bit of both. So there’s some days you can actually wake up and you can taste it.
Kathy: Yes, I found that in Torino. I love Torino. But I was tasting car exhaust in the winter.
Elizabeth: Oh, yeah. No, exactly. No, but it’s. And it’s. And it’s some days too, depending on the direction that the wind blows. Because northern Italy is also so industrial and agricultural, you can almost smell like you’re in a farm, but you’re in the middle of the city.
Kathy: That happens. I live in Denver. That happens. When we have a storm come in, it’s great. We say it smells like Greeley. It’s farmland. The wind comes from the farms. It smells like manure, basically.
Elizabeth: No, exactly. And it. So that’s just a smell that I don’t. That’s. No one likes.
Kathy: Right.
[30:13]
Elizabeth: But the pollution itself, I mean, for me, I really, I can feel it in my face. And as woman, it’s like you wake up and you’re like, oh, I’m a little bit. I’m a little bit. The skin and I’m a little bit.
Kathy: Yeah. I was looking at my photos from. Or just some video I did in Milan. I was like, I was like. I think it was the air.
Elizabeth: It is. And so they’re, there’s a reason that a lot of Milanese, I have to say, they’re not here on the weekends. They love to travel.
Kathy: They do leave.
Elizabeth: They love to travel. They love to go Forte dei Marmi in the summer, in the winter, those are two big hot spots. But they do. They love, they love to travel. But also I think Italians in general and specifically the Milanese really appreciate good. Like they call, going to do some sports outside and they want their kids to go do sport wherever. So if they go to the lakes, if they go up to the mountains, even out to the country. But it’s also, I’m realizing it’s a respite from the air. A lot of people say that. Yeah, it’s. It’s pretty bad. And so we’re leaving this weekend and it is, it does wear on you after a while. That is my biggest gripe and I, I’m glad I didn’t know before we moved here because I think it would have turned me off from moving.
Kathy: Yeah.
Elizabeth: I wouldn’t say it’s a deal breaker unless you are specifically very sensitive individual. Yeah, I, I sometimes. Some days I do. I will, I will say my son gets bloody noses. Yeah, we used to really get. So, yeah, that’s something that I’m very sensitive to. And I think about that on and off and have talked to the doctor about. Yeah, but he, otherwise, I mean, they spend a ton of time at the school where they are. The school is just south of the city and they’re outside playing as much as possible.
Kathy: So their air is probably better a little bit.
[33:31]
Elizabeth: I mean, you’re still, again, in this big ring of mountains. You’re in this big ring of mountains and he’s not, he’s not escaping that. But you’re not with the cars constantly passing by.
Kathy: How does he get to school?
Elizabeth: So he takes the school bus. And not like a little yellow school bus, but most of the schools here, actually, even if international schools, they do charter buses. And so it’s. He loves it. I mean, what kid doesn’t love the bus? Life happens on the bus. Right. As a kid.
Kathy: Right, right, right. “Bye, Mom”. That’s really great. So one of the reasons I wanted to interview you was specifically for families thinking about moving. And it sounds like. Did you even think about putting him into an Italian school or not really?
Elizabeth: We did a little bit. I think we looked at the British school. For us, really was a matter of the type of educational system that were, that I was wanting him to be in. The British system is very different than the French system, than the American system and even the German system, all which have international schools here in. In Milan. And we decided ultimately, after, I interviewed several schools that I really wanted him to stick with the American system. But what I. What I liked about it, because I didn’t like the idea of my son moving to Italy and not learning Italian. I thought that would be.
Kathy: Yeah, that’s a big thing.
Elizabeth: Is that the schools, especially where we are, they really spend a lot of time teaching Italian to the kids. And because there’s a large percentage of the children of the population, actually, who are Italians specifically, they speak together. And so if you want to be a part of that community, you have to try. And that’s been really good. So, we considered it because of the language, but it was already such a big change that ultimately we decided on the American system because it also had an emphasis on. I mean, they spend a lot of time speaking Italian in school. He’s really enjoying it again. Every transition comes with a couple ups and downs, missing friends, all of that. But at that age, coming in second grade, he really found a groove and found a group of kids that he really loves. And I really love that, Milan again. I mean, he even goes after school. One of the things we did this year is because I wanted him to have more exposure to Italian culture. We didn’t just keep him in after schools at the school. He now is doing after school in other schools that are Italian. But we signed him up for basketball at another Italian school nearby. And all the kids are Italian and or they all speak Italian, but there’s a lot of kids who also are starting to come from other countries. And so he has a really good friend from Albania who goes to this really nice Italian private school that he does basketball in. And so he’s getting this international flair in Milan no matter where he goes, which I think is so interesting.
Kathy: That’s so interesting. Yeah.
Elizabeth: Really great. I mean, of course there’s still traditional Milanese and. But I definitely find the Milanese for the most part, very welcoming. I really do.
[36:39]
Kathy: I think they get a bad rap.
Elizabeth: I do with the New Yorkers.
Kathy: And I think there used to be an international city for a long time and I think they, you can’t make these huge generalizations, but it’s a dynamic place. There’s a lot going on and when you have people coming in or even all the different events, when you have that turnover of people, there’s a lot of ideas coming in and things. So as a parent, how have you changed? Have you changed at all? Or do you feel a difference in parenting or your family, living in Italy?
Elizabeth: Yeah, that’s a great question because I absolutely would say yes. One of the first things is that a, a friend of mine, a really good friend who I met the school, who I think, she actually was the first one to say this to me, she said, you’re gonna find that you just don’t have these conversations about trying to find healthy food for your kids. You’re just gonna find that it doesn’t exist. And because it’s a constant thing, I remember being back in the U.S. we’re thinking, okay, well, oh, this snack is good. It doesn’t have this. And did you try this? And the kids really like it and it’s sweet, but it’s not all of the tricks and treats, but there’s none of that here. The food is just, it’s just fantastic. And you’re not going to get a bunch of processed foods and worrying about what goes into your kids bodies. And that whole conversation about healthy eating for kids has just essentially completely dissolved. I mean, for any one of your listeners who travels, they probably have seen that fast food outside of the US is much more expensive than it is in the US. It’s much cheaper to go to a farmer’s market. And have the freshest produce and vegetables and meats that you can get than to go and buy a dinner at the McDonald’s here. So the majority of people still buy really fresh produce. They cook really healthy. They, everyone who says that they don’t cook, they’re like, oh, yeah, I made dinner last night. And you ask them what does not cooking and making dinner mean? And they’re still, buying fresh made, even from a really great grocer. Fresh made that day. Pesto and putting it on…
Kathy: Those prepared foods too, are really good in some of those, supermarkets, especially Milan.
Elizabeth: Oh, 100% pre made.
Kathy: But it’s so fresh and delicious.
Elizabeth: It’s so fresh. And so I think, that from my parenting perspective, that’s been really great. And there’s a lot of anxieties and things that happen in the States that I just don’t have here. Frankly, that has been really nice. But I will say the slower pace and the rhythm of kids just being kids is really important here. It’s been a night. And Italians in general just love kids.
Kathy: They really do.
[39:34]
Elizabeth: Oh, they do. And so they see, they don’t. We walk into a restaurant they don’t even want to talk to…
Kathy: They’re not separated, it’s the family.
Elizabeth: It’s all about the family. And they love, love kids. No matter whatever the age is, they’re just so happy that they’re all there. And that’s been really nice. And so as a parent, feeling in some parts of the U.S. you’re like, should I take my kid here? Should I not? I don’t have that anxiety. And that’s been really nice.
Kathy: Very cool. What has surprised you the most about the move, Milan, Italy?
Elizabeth: The hardest thing about moving to Italy has been trying to actually speak Italian.
Kathy: Other people say that and I understand myself, I speak it. But, there’s a lot of grammar and verbs involved.
Elizabeth: But it’s that it’s also, again, the benefit and the crux of being an international skit city. I want to learn it. I’m actively I’ve been taking private lessons, I’ve been joining the PTOs, group to speak and trying as much as we can. But at the end of the day, most people here actually speak English. So they do have that sense of this is where they have the big city sense where you walk in, you think, “Okay, let’s speak Italian,”. And then they’re like, “I’ve got to get on with my day, you’re struggling, I’m just going to speak to you back in English.”
Kathy: Yeah.
Elizabeth: Don’t get that interaction as much as. As much as I would like. So that’s been a bit of a challenge. And I would say that honestly, after leaving New York, we had one car and we moved to Lake Tahoe and we had to get two cars and now we have one car again. And I’m loving it. I’m loving just taking public transportation again. I’m loving walking everywhere and. Oh, that’s the other big thing. I would say that how small actually Milan is. The stuff that you actually move around in the areas that you want to go to. If you’re close to the city center, it’s unbelievably walkable. I walk across the entire city center within these three ring rule roads that encompass Milan in an hour and it’s incredible. And I love that. That’s just feel it makes it feel like the world is at your fingertips.
[41:54]
Kathy: Yeah. Is there anything you really miss besides family or friends?
Elizabeth: Besides the people for sure. I will tell you, I miss specific foods.
Kathy: I know you’re going to say that.
Elizabeth: I know. Well, originally I’m from Texas and my husband’s from California. But we spend our, our adult life in New York. So I’m a New Yorker at heart. But I miss Mexican food. I miss Mexican food. If anyone wants to come to Milan and open an authentic Mexican restaurant, I know a line.
Kathy: Such a market. There really is.
Elizabeth: It’s such a market that in Chinese food, I’ll say. I mean, there’s some good Chinese foods.
Kathy: Yeah. I’ve had. In Torino, I had really good Chinese food years ago. Yeah, there’s some, you can get some. But it’s very funny, in another conversation I was telling. I can’t remember what supermarket I was in. Maybe I was in Emilia Romagna. It was a big supermarket and they had a whole Mexican section. Things have changed. The tortillas and the imported, the big brand from. From the U.S. so, it’s interesting how tastes have changed and there is a little more option for that. But it’s not like a restaurant or, you’re gonna. I’m gonna totally have Mexican later in honor of you. I’m going to take a picture.
Elizabeth: Oh, thank you. Yes, please do have a great margarita.
Kathy: Yeah exactly. Any advice for others who are thinking about doing this, especially if they don’t like maybe they’re doing a digital Nomad or their job is not bringing them to Milan.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I think the biggest thing I can say and I’ll tell you this, when we moved to Milan, we did not know one person who lived here.
Kathy: Okay. You didn’t know anybody.
[43:44]
Elizabeth: No one. We didn’t have anyone to talk to and compare it to. I would say if you’re a family, try to find a great community in a school that you can lean into that’s pretty active and does things just outside of school as well, because that’s going to be a lifeline to not just only meeting interesting other like minded parents, but then they introduce you to other parts of the community outside of there. But I would say in addition to that, it’s just to be patient.
Kathy: It doesn’t happen at once.
Elizabeth: It does not. We are so wired as Americans for instant gratification and one of the things I will say I love about Italy—which can be infuriating, but it’s one of the reasons we chose to move here at the same time—is the moments of pause that they have. Where even in this big business capital you must take your hour for lunch. And it’s not like a rule, a law. It may be a labor rule, but I don’t think it is. People really just want to genuinely go and have a meal. And I think that my time sitting at a desk in New York working in the fashion industry and how often I did that, I mean, I can count in seven, eight years one hand, I always ate at my desk. And that’s not the case here. In fact, it’s actually frowned upon.
Kathy: Oh, very much so.
Elizabeth: And having that patience to just recognize the system here is just slower. But there’s a benefit to it because it does actually. It benefits you, right. It benefits your productivity, it benefits your health, it benefits your mental clarity. It’s really nice. And so I think if somebody can come through and look at it, be like, okay, “I’m not going to get this piece of paper today, I may not even get it tomorrow, but I will get it. I just have to be patient.”
Kathy: That’s patience.
Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[45:37]
Kathy: So what are some ways to meet people if you don’t have kids or you’re in a school or outside of school?
Elizabeth: Well, so there’s been some great. There are some like New York City. There’s some great groups attached to museums and the symphony and obviously the Scala and just general walking tours that people do. Locals in addition, obviously there’s still tourists who are involved, but that locals do. And it’s been really nice just on a whim to go and sign up for one. And there’s quite a community of people who really enjoy doing activities and just getting to know the city and not just in Italian, but also in English. So if you’re just fresh, you can come and learn about the city you’ve moved into in English. But it’s really catered also for locals, which is, I think, a really awesome experience.
Kathy: So how do you find them? This is actually. I should have asked everyone. What are some of your resources to find these things? Or, what’s your go to. To sort of see what’s going on?
Elizabeth: Well, we just started going to museums a lot when we first got here and we. We started just taking the pan.
Kathy: Oh, yeah, they always have, right?
Elizabeth: And just seeing what’s going on. That was the first thing we did, really. And we. We went to a bunch of shows at the Scala, which is amazing.
Kathy: Oh, yes.
Elizabeth: And again, we just took what was happening and started reading the websites, which you can use Google Translate to just see what’s going on and then you can just sign up to go. There’s a few. I’ll happily send you a couple. Couple links of a couple places that I do know that you can share with your viewers, listeners. But there are some really wonderful local companies that do some really interesting activities too. So, the Fondazione Prada also does some great stuff.
[47:18]
Kathy: I went for the first time last year. It is phenomenal.
Elizabeth: It’s amazing.
Kathy: If you’re just going on a trip to Milan. You want to go there. There’s the bar that director, I’ve actually met him, Wes Anderson, I’ve met him in Rome, which is on a rooftop with God. The other. I have to remember. Oh, Bill Murray. And I’m telling you, this was the weirdest night. And God. The woman who was in the movie about the Dakotas. Oh, God, it was. I’ll remember and I’ll have to fill it in. But anyway, yeah.
Elizabeth: Oh, my God, that’s amazing.
Kathy: The three of them. And then I asked if we could take a picture with Bill Murray and it was Wes Anderson who took the picture. But it wasn’t a very good picture. Her name is on the tip of my tongue. She was like, you’re getting a picture by a famous director.
Elizabeth: Oh, my God. Amazing.
Kathy: Anyway, but then I just remember because he also designed the bar at the Fondazione Prada, which you could go have coffee or aperitivo. There are so many cultural groups and cultural things to do. Oh, I remembered Frances McDormand.
Elizabeth: Oh, Frances McDormand. Yes, exactly. Oh my, good job.
Kathy: They were there for the Rome Film Festival.
Elizabeth: Oh, probably.
Kathy: And it was just very random. It was just very random. But that’s it. That’s Italy. Italy is very serendipitous at times. It was a very random night. Yeah.
[47:18]
Elizabeth: I will say the other thing that we did that’s so interesting to do here that no one really does in America, which is. You asked me what surprised me earlier and it’s that a lot of shops and a lot of designers and a lot of just individuals, they do a lot of events and they’ll do aperitivos. And so if you get on their mailing list, you’ll get invitations to it. And so we would get. You get things like this in the States and no one really goes here. People go. And it’s an hour or two and you’ll go to a shop or a store or a gallery. There’s a lobster roll place that opened up an American lobster roll place. Delicious. And we got on the mailing list and we ended up going. They had a DJ and they were having mini lobster rolls. There were people spilling out into the street, just coming after work, having drinks. I mean, there were probably 150 to 200 people there.
Kathy: So it’s very social.
Elizabeth: It’s very social. And again, it’s not a big party. It’s just a fun, casual after work drink. People come and go and it’s a great way to meet people. And so just going out into the city here and just signing up and trying to be involved with these different restaurants or stores is also just really a great way to meet.
Kathy: That is a great tip. Thank you. So if someone wanted to. Do you have a website for your work?
Elizabeth: I do. My company is elizabethyanevinteriors.com.
Kathy: I have to take a look at that. And then we will also put some show notes at dreamofitaly.com/podcast where we can link to some of the things you’ve mentioned. Thank you so much, I learned a lot. I’m glad I’m not crazy about the air pollution…
Elizabeth: Oh, you are not.
Kathy: Because I was dying.
Elizabeth: Oh, my gosh. You are not. I know. I kept thinking of a lot of those poor Olympians and I’m like, oh, my gosh. They’ve competed in other environments, so they’re used to it…
Kathy: Yes, it was something.
Elizabeth: Definitely.