Transcript with Show Notes Embedded:
Damien O’Farrell: Every year they talk about the top 10 countries that people would like to relocate to. I have never seen a year where Italy is not in the top 10. Okay? If someone is contemplating moving to Italy, it only makes sense that they ask, where should I live? Okay? And that can only be answered by the person themselves. Do they need to work? Are they retired? Do they want to be near a major airport? What’s the budget? Okay? Because the budget is very important.
Kathy McCabe: This is Kathy McCabe. Welcome to the Dream of Italy podcast. You know me from the PBS travel series Dream of Italy and the award-winning website and publication. Join me as we explore the sights and sounds of Bella Italia. From the canals of Venice to the piazzas of Puglia. From the fashion houses of Milan to the vineyards of Tuscany. Hop on, it’s going to be a great ride. Andiamo!
So I am thrilled to be here with my old friend Damien O’Farrell, who is a relocation expert based in Rome. He’s been doing this more than 35 years and time and experience matter when it comes to making a big move to Italy. He may look familiar to you because he was in the Dream of Italy, travel, transform and thrive PBS special a few years ago. Damien, welcome. It’s great to catch up. A lot has happened since that special.
[01:50]
Damien: Yes, because then we had also the pandemic after that, so.
Kathy: Yes! So we recorded it in the fall of 2019 and then the special premiered in 2021 with a delay because of the pandemic. But I think we both know that in that pandemic, people’s dreams were percolating. So how would you characterize these past few years in terms of interest in moving to Italy and the basically the scene?
Damien: There has been an enormous increase for one reason or another, okay? And it’s coming from different groups of people, which I think is really interesting. Because it’s coming from people that want to retire. It’s coming from people that want to do remote work or they want to be digital nomads. It’s coming from people that want to start businesses. It’s coming from a very wide group of people. And I think that’s really fantastic because I think it’s fantastic for two reasons. I think number one, because it’s a wide group of people and second, each group in itself brings something positive to Italy. So I think it benefits the people moving and I think it’s benefiting the country. It’s a win-win.
Kathy: I agree. So we have the digital nomad visa now so there’s people, it was hard to go and actually be a working professional in Italy, now that’s possible. And people are bringing their kids, so it’s not just retirees. And Italy… a big theme of like since the Olympics, Italy is back, but it never really went anywhere, but it is investment… it’s really something to watch.
Damien: Every year they talk about the top 10 countries that people would like to relocate to. I have never seen a year where Italy is not in the top 10. Okay? So Italy is, and I believe will continue to always be, a sought after destination. But now because… I mean Italy was a little late to the party with the digital nomad visa, but now that that has gotten off the ground, it has introduced Italy to a new group of people. And those people if they go to smaller towns, they can be very interesting for that town.
[04:33]
Kathy: Oh yeah. And it can be quite an economic benefit both ways because you’re making American or foreign money, but your cost of living in one of those towns is so low. And it’s bringing new blood of course to these towns. But do you think sometimes it’s a little tense?
Damien: Tense in the small town?
Kathy: Yeah. Like integrating where you know… as much as I say it’s a dream of Italy and I also want to be realistic, you know, do you think it’s harder to sort of integrate in these small towns or do you think it’s easier because Italians are incredibly warm?
Damien: I think if you go to a smaller town as opposed to Milan or Rome, you have to have the language.
Kathy: Yes, that’s the key.
Damien: I mean, there’s no two ways about that. It’s just going to be too hard to integrate without the language, okay? And even if the people want to embrace you, there’s this language barrier, okay? And then I think rather than the town being tense or the people not wanting to embrace you, the person could end up feeling isolated.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: And that’s what could cause the quote unquote dream to not work out. So if you choose a small town, you’ve got to be aware of the fact that language is key.
Kathy: Very well said. So in our chat, I’d really like to focus on… I think this can be the hardest part for some people, and maybe for some people it’s easy. They’ve gone to a place and there is an energy that you feel, like this is my place. But I think for a lot of people, there’s a debate about where to move. And certainly for instance, we all love Florence. But I don’t know how much I recommend… I mean I love Florence, but it seems so crowded now, so I mean is that your sense or do you feel like it’s still a good place to live?
Damien: Florence is Florence, so it’s always going to be a beautiful city. It’s become, like Rome and Milan, extremely expensive.
[07:11]
Kathy: Yes, in the last few years.
Damien: Particularly if you want to live in a central area. Because the property market, like Rome and Milan and other places, it’s been vacuumed by the short-term accommodation platforms, okay? So what’s available long-term is very reduced in comparison to a few years ago. One of the things I see a lot on the internet is people asking that question. And they ask me too. They say, “Where should I live?” Okay? And it’s a loaded question because unless I know you, it’s hard for me to respond.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: And I’ll give you a personal example because I mean I live in Rome, but then I have a home in a smaller town, which I love, but I would never live there permanently because it’s too small for me.
Kathy: Yeah.
Damien: But that’s me, it could work for somebody else. So I think when it comes to where you should live in Italy, you need to ask yourself a few things. What do you need to do in Italy? Okay. Are you retired? Do you have a location independent business? Do you need to work? Okay? And if you are going to be retired, that opens up a lot more possibilities. If you’ve got what I call a business in a box, then you can basically live anywhere as long as there’s a good internet connection. Okay? If you want to build a career, then that’s going to limit the places you can live in Italy, okay? Do you have health issues? Do you need to be near health care facilities? Do you have children? Do you want them to go to a local school? Do you want them to go to an international school? Okay? Do you want to be near an international airport? For me that’s very important, okay? I don’t want to get off a nine-hour flight and then drive three hours to get home. I want to be home in 25 minutes by taxi. Okay, but that’s me, okay? And so it’s only by getting granular about what you’re looking for can we start to narrow down the possibilities.
Kathy: Yeah. And I think people really have to ask themselves, go in and how often do you socialize? Like do you need to see people? Because I know you and I in other conversations have talked about the fantasy, the dream of the villa in Tuscany in the countryside, but often those are a drive away from any kind of town, not even a walk, and you know it’s a little more isolated and I think we’ve talked about it, people think they want that till they go and experience it.
[10:15]
Damien: I had that with a client, she moved with her husband to a small town in Calabria, okay? And after one year, they were going crazy, okay? And they wanted to give up, they wanted to move back to New York. And I said, “Follow me on this, try Milan.”
Kathy: Yeah, which is close to… it’s similar.
Damien: And they were hesitant, but they said, “Okay, well we’ve got nothing to lose so we’ll try Milan.” Fast forward five years, they’re still there and they’re loving their life in Milan, okay? Because they can also get easily to Switzerland, they can go to the South of France and they just like the life in Milan. Okay? So it wasn’t Italy was not right for them, it was where they had chosen.
Kathy: Because Italy is so diverse. So let’s let’s go through some places that are kind of trending or that you look at the places… why I brought up Florence is that was sort of the magnet for a long time for people. And where I think even for myself where it would have been like, oh that’s the automatic place to move. I think there’s just so many people moving there, the prices have been driven up. It’s crowded. People are looking elsewhere. So if we come back to Milan, Milan… I went for the Olympics and I mean it’s having its moment. It is and also I think with what… I don’t know yesterday there was, I think it was in the Economist or the Atlantic, that Milan is now replacing Dubai or a lot of people from Dubai, you know… So it’s it’s… tell us about Milan and sort of who it’s right for right now.
Damien: Well it’s right for somebody who’s not looking for a quiet bucolic lifestyle, okay? It’s also good for people that want to continue networking, okay? It has… for example, I had a client and they were looking for somewhere and initially they thought about Sardinia, okay? And they tried it, but they found it was isolating. Okay, they had to get on a plane even to come to the mainland, okay? And then they discovered Milan and that was it. Because you’ve got easy access to the lakes, you’ve got easy access to Milan and if you want to continue in business, it’s the business capital of Italy. Okay? If you want to build a career, if you’re interested in fashion, if you’re interested in so many things. And despite what people think, it’s got a wonderful culinary scene. Okay?
Kathy: Oh the food is, yeah. Yeah.
Damien: Food is off the charts, okay? And I personally think it’s a nice city. I think certain parts of it are really beautiful. So it’s going to work for somebody that wants to stay plugged in.
Kathy: Right. And that may even be retirees who just want more action, you know, more culture… to go out three, four nights a week, you know there’s always something to do. Um, you know, and there’s been an interesting trend even in the United States of retirees moving to New York City. Because you don’t need a car, you have lots of action, lots of things going on.
Damien: I agree with you. I mean just because you’re retired doesn’t mean that you should be sort of categorized as wanting to move to, you know, a smaller place. Okay? I mean, Milan, as you said correctly, will also work for retirees, okay? As I think we spoke about, it also will work for people that are looking to buy at the high end of the market because Milan gives you a lot for what you pay. And that’s why it’s becoming the new Dubai. Because it has, Italy has and I would imagine will continue to have, a type of unrivaled lifestyle. Okay? So high net worth individuals that were based in Dubai are looking at Milan because the luxury property market gives you a lot for what you pay for. And you can avail of the 300,000 euro yearly flat tax for high income people, okay? And you could even combine that with the investors visa. So Milan becomes extremely interesting.
Kathy: It does, it really does. And it’s crazy because when we last, when we spoke on TV, I don’t know if they had it then, it was 100,000 euros.
Damien: Yeah.
Kathy: You know, and but if you’re making millions, it’s still an incredible, you know, deal.
Damien: But even though it increased from 100 to two to now three, it’s still a really good deal. Okay? And that is why Milan has attracted millionaires from London, from Paris, from Dubai. I mean it is on fire.
Kathy: I know, are people going to get priced out or…
Damien: Unfortunately, unfortunately yes. I mean, that’s the downside. Okay? But the good thing about Milan is that it has a pretty good public transport system, okay? So you can get to parts of the city with the metro where properties are more accessible.
Kathy: What are some… do you have some neighborhoods that you like or…
Damien: Well I mean everybody wants to be in Brera and these sought after, you know, areas. But I mean you can go on the green line, the red line and you can explore those areas. I think you have to go and explore the areas that are within your budget, okay? And, you know, if you work with a realtor and you tell them, “Okay, this is my budget,” they will take you to the areas that will match…
Kathy: Right, you can afford.
Damien: That will match, because Milan, yes, I mean it’s attracting a lot of high net worth individuals. But it’s also attracting, you know, people that are coming to build a career that may not necessarily have millions to spend on a property. So…
Kathy: Oh no, of course. And there are Italians also who need to move there…
Damien: Yeah, so I mean even though we’re seeing the hyperbolic headlines of everybody’s moving from Dubai to Milan, you’ve also got people moving there who are going for a job. So the city is still accessible, okay? It’s just that usually when the press writes about Italy, it’s about one aspect of it.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: Because, you know, when they talk about Sicily, we only tend to hear about the 1 euro houses. Okay? We don’t hear about other aspects of the island. And the same is true of Milan. But what I’m now saying is, and I think I’m the only one saying this at the moment, I’m calling it… I sort of tagged it space is the new luxury. And I’m talking about the region of Molise, okay?
Kathy: Well yes, that’s why I’ve actually been to Molise and it is you know that last, one of the last undiscovered… I very much want to do a TV episode there. So one of the reasons that I saw your comment and I’m thinking the same thing and I’ll be interviewing some retirees who moved to Molise. So what do you love about Molise for people?
Damien: It’s one of the most underpopulated regions of Italy, okay? And it gives you as much space as you want, okay? I have a client who bought a property there in the province of Isernia, okay? Now, they were very lucky because they stumbled across a property that had been restructured by an architect. But the same property in a sought after part of Tuscany would have been four times the price. Okay? And you’ve got you know, you’ve also got Termoli by the sea. So the region has something for everybody and it’s got that luxury of space. Okay? Which is premium. Okay? And it’s got all the authentic side of Italy that people look for. So the food is wonderful, there’s a laid-back lifestyle, okay? That you know, which we just talked about Milan, that may not necessarily be in Milan because it’s a different vibe. And so that side of Italy that people are looking for and that they’re attracted to is in abundance in Molise, okay? And plus, it’s not off the beaten track. I mean as much as I love Sardinia, I’m conscious of the fact that if I want to come to the mainland, I’ve got to get on a plane or I’ve got to get on a boat. Okay? Whereas Molise, you can get to Naples pretty easily, you can get to Rome, there’s a lot going for it. I mean I wanna go down there again and I wanna do another few scouting trips because I went there for the first time way, way, way, way back. And then when this client talked about space, I don’t know why I just Molise just came to mind.
Kathy: There’s a lot when I went, um god I went with my mom years ago, and maybe it’s gotta be like 12, at least 12 or 15 years ago. And when we wrote about it, it’s a big, you know we went to the bells factory. There’s a few famous things, but in Campobasso. But there’s a lot of outdoors, like if you love the outdoors and nature and you know want to get out and hike and that’s your thing, it is a great choice. Um and…
Damien: And great air quality.
Kathy: That’s what I’m looking for.
Damien: The air is really good. And it’s got, you know, it’s got all of the pluses of other regions, but as I said, it’s really underpopulated. Even cities like Isernia and Campobasso, these are not high populated cities. You know. So if you don’t want to be in a tiny, tiny town, you can you’ve got as I said you’ve got Isernia, you’ve got Campobasso, you’ve got Termoli and you know I think that smart, savvy people will investigate Molise. Um, and I think the people there too are very happy about that because they see the…
Kathy: Well what is it is it that phrase Molise non esiste?
Damien: Yes, they say yeah, because it’s completely overlooked. I think it’s overlooked a little bit like the northern region of Val d’Aosta, okay?
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: That’s another region that you don’t really hear about a lot of people moving to. And I have to be honest, I’ve been there once. I need to go there again because I can’t say that I really know the region, but I think that’s another region that needs to be explored.
Kathy: Why?
Damien: Because I think it has a certain French influence like you can find in Piemonte, that I think would appeal to certain people. If you’re a big skier, that’s a wonderful region. It’s very well located in that you can easily also get to the South of France, you can get to Monaco, you can get to Switzerland, so again it comes back to what we were talking about, where what do you want? Once we can get that list together, then we can start to identify places for you. Okay?
Kathy: Do you feel like you know I was talking to a friend about where I might want to live and I love Emilia Romagna for instance and he was just like he grew up there and he was like “Oh everyone is so closed.” Do you feel what could you advise people on that concept of different parts of Italy you know having a reputation for being maybe a little colder…
Damien: Well I mean I was just a while back I was in Treviso, which is another, which is Veneto, which is another underrated city. Okay? It’s almost like a cousin of Venice in a certain way. Um, I mean obviously Venice is unique, but you know it’s a city that people could think about if they’re drawn to a city like Venice. Um, I think a lot of how you will be embraced depends a lot on yourself.
Kathy: It’s true.
Damien: If you bring in openness, you’re not critical. Okay? I think most people will let you in eventually. Okay? Um, you know just because there’s an initial openness doesn’t mean that you’ve actually been embraced.
Kathy: True.
Damien: Okay? Um, you know some cultures that I’ve dealt with that were kind of slow to let me in, became the cultures in which I created some of the most important friendships. Okay?
Kathy: Yeah.
Damien: And then other…
Kathy: Because once you’re in, you’re in.
Damien: Once you’re in, yeah they’re a little slow at the beginning because they’re sizing you up. And then you’ve got other cultures and it’s very much immediately, “Oh let’s go out” and then sometimes that can fizzle. Okay? So I think you know more than the people, I would say it’s about what do you really need to be happy. Okay? What will make you wake up in the morning and say, “I really love living here.” Okay? I have a friend from Naples who would never live anywhere else. Okay? And you know, when he walks the streets of Naples, it breathes fire into his soul. Okay? And he couldn’t imagine living anywhere else and I think that’s an incredible gift.
Kathy: Oh to know that, to feel that, to be like that is my place.
Damien: And Rome for me is like that.
Kathy: Is that your energy, yeah.
Damien: I mean, there are days where it will frustrate me, okay?
Kathy: Oh that’s Italy.
Damien: I can’t find parking. I go to the public office, the system isn’t working, but when I go on my walks in the morning, the city still amazes me. Okay?
Kathy: Oh Rome is Rome, you know Rome. It’s so funny though your needs change. When I was in my 20s, I desperately wanted to live in Rome or 30s. And now you know I love it, I do get I’m a Leo, I swear there’s like an energy of like Leos in Rome. But you know I think it feels a little overwhelming to me. But that’s you know you change over time.
Damien: I mean there’s no doubt it can be overwhelming. Okay? I mean today I had to meet a friend, the traffic was out of control. Okay? And fortunately I left early enough. But on the flip side, I kind of then, you know spent time in Gaeta which is smaller, and I love it, but I wouldn’t be good there 12 months a year.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: Because the problem with some… and this brings me to another point that might be interesting for your followers and readers and people with membership, is they need to look at Cagliari in Sardinia.
Kathy: I have been thinking, you know I’ve been and I that’s probably one that I’m going to put in this issue, I’m going to put Sardinia, but tell me, tell me why because it’s on my radar.
Damien: Because it is a city, but it’s not overwhelming, okay? And for example, you know in Gaeta which I adore, but in the winter it doesn’t become as dead as some other places.
Kathy: Yeah, but sometimes there’s a deadness, totally dead.
Damien: But you have restaurants that are seasonal and they shut down. But Cagliari doesn’t. Cagliari remains open all year round. And if you and the same is true of Bari, okay? These are the two cities.
Kathy: Bari is another one, I know people who’ve moved there. But when we’re talking about Sardinia, we’re talking about the north, Costa Smeralda, Alghero. I mean I don’t think Alghero necessarily shuts down, but do you feel like it shuts down more than the Cagliari is just…
Damien: Well it’s it’s kind of a little bit smaller. Cagliari would be the place I would advise people to check out, okay? If they’re looking for a city type environment. Okay? It doesn’t shut down, it’s got an airport with good connections, okay? Um, and there’s an IT sector that’s kind of burgeoning within the city, so there are interesting things happening there, okay? And then of course you’ve got smaller places like Oristano that you know, people it could work for some people then in the north you’ve got Sassari, you’ve got Alghero, you’ve got these cities but I think Cagliari is unique from this point of view. It’s city-like, it doesn’t shut down which is important because I’ve been to some of those smaller towns in the south and some of them become really dead during the winter. Okay? And that’s not for me, okay?
Kathy: We have so much to cover because what what is your overall view of Sicily and are there certain places that you like?
Damien: Um, I think you know Sicily, Sicily is sought after now. Okay? I mean I just read today that the singer Dua Lipa is going to get married in Palermo. Okay? And so all of these kind of events are bringing a spotlight onto Sicily, okay? Now, another thing that just recently happened, uh, that you probably know about.
Kathy: Is it an incentive, tell me.
Damien: Yeah, the now, you still have to be a little bit careful because the 7% program has been extended to…
Kathy: Right, 30,000.
Damien: 30,000, okay. Um, that might not necessarily mean that the infrastructure is better so I would still investigate, but it now brings under that umbrella a city like Noto, okay?
Kathy: Noto is something, and just to recap for people who don’t know, there’s a 7% flat tax for retirees in the south. But part of, primarily the south, and basically for up to 10 years depending on when you become a resident, you can avail of this special 7% tax on what is normally a foreign pension. Okay? Um, and it used to be only for towns with 20,000 inhabitants. They extended this now to 30,000. So Noto is on your radar now for that.
Damien: That’s now become a town that would qualify, okay? But I have read um, and I’ve also heard from realtors that the prices have gone up considerably. Okay? Um, Catania I think has a lot to offer as a city again. Also because it has a very well-connected airport. Okay? And then of course you can you can branch out from there, okay? You can go to smaller towns. Okay?
Kathy: There’s one that all these TikTokers are in, um called Salemi?
Damien: Yes, but they’ve got water problems.
Kathy: What do you mean?
Damien: They’ve got, they’ve got issues with drought. And from what I understand, yeah, and they have to collect the water in tanks.
Kathy: Yes, I think I’ve seen that in some of these TikToks um, but they’re you know these less expensive, you know 20, 30, 40,000 euro homes. Interesting thing to me, I have this severe allergy to mold and I see like they will sometimes redo the houses and then boom, that mold is back. You know these are some of the challenges I think of some of these.
Damien: I mean TikTok only shows you a part of the story.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: And it it’s like the one euro houses. Okay? I mean I think even at one point you could buy a house in Detroit for a dollar. Okay? But there was a reason why it was a dollar, okay? And there’s a reason why a house is one euro. Okay? But if you look in the price range of 25 to 40,000 euros, you can very often find sometimes a turnkey ready property.
Kathy: Yes, and I encourage people to look for that. You can find the renovated at 50 or 60,000 or 40.
Damien: And so you don’t have all of the issues of renovating, finding a contractor and so on. Okay? So Sicily is one of my own personal favorites as a region. But you’ve got to look at certain challenges because you got to make sure that it’s a place that doesn’t have issues with water. Okay? Because they’ve had problems. Then the infrastructure is is old in some parts and so it doesn’t collect the water like it should and so there are issues with that. But Palermo is a magnificent city.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: But you’ve also got Trapani which is you know not that far from um Palermo and it has its own airport as well, okay? And then inland you you know you’ve got and then you’ve got Agrigento. I mean you’ve got your, you’re spoiled for choice.
Kathy: There’s a lot. Then you’ve got Taormina, um which is a little bit sort of White Lotus-ish.
Damien: It’s gotten a little to, it’s beautiful, but it’s gotten touristy.
Damien: But between Taormina and Catania you’ve got you’ve got you know an area that if you’re on a budget is a lot more accessible. Because Taormina is is quite expensive now. Okay? Oh yeah. Yeah. And and with the TV show being based there they saw a huge influx and of course that always causes prices to go up. Um, and then you know you’ve got to look at places like I think people don’t look at it because it can be challenging to reach is Basilicata. Okay? This is another relatively undiscovered region.
Kathy: I love it down, I love the south, but we need to talk about health care.
Damien: Okay.
Kathy: What are your thoughts on place and health care and the south and health care?
Damien: Well if we look at Italy as a whole. Okay? Um and I think I’ve basically I’ve been in a hospital I think in every region.
Kathy: Oh dear.
Damien: No not for me, because I’ve been you know taking in, but with visiting people. And it’s been it’s been a good experience because it’s given me a lot of insight.
Kathy: Okay, tell us.
Damien: Um, it’s hit and miss. Okay? Even within the same city. Okay? Um, even in Rome you can be, it can be wonderful in one hospital and then you go to another one and it’s less wonderful. Okay? Speaking from almost 38 years in Italy, I think you have to combine it with also private medical insurance. Okay? I just, I with the national health care system, I recently tried to make an appointment for a certain checkup and they did give me an appointment, but for April of 2027. Okay?
Kathy: You know America is becoming like that.
Damien: And so I went privately and I paid like 150 euros which is very reasonable. Because even if you go privately, um if you’re talking about the United States, there really is no comparison. Okay? You know the United States is is a very much its own particular case. And Italy even if you go privately, you know I think that what you pay is quite reasonable. Okay? Um, you have to check out health care. Okay? Um I remember years ago I went to visit a friend of mine from Rome who went to a public hospital in Bressanone, right up in the north, and it was like a private, it was like a private clinic. Okay? But it was a public hospital.
Kathy: Right.
Damien: What I always say about health care in Italy is if you get sick, you won’t be under financial duress, okay? Because you will be taken care of. Okay? And I I do want to stress one thing that even if the system sometimes might not work in a specific case, you have really good people working within the system. Okay? And so you will come across really good doctors, really good nurses and other healthcare professionals. But I would really advise somebody, if this is high on their list of priorities, would be to go check out the health care facilities where they’re thinking of moving to.
Kathy: Yeah, that’s good advice. And so do you think like private is another… so there is this stereotype but it may be true or this that you know the health care is not as good in the south. Um…
Damien: That tends to be the general opinion.
Kathy: And does private really help you in that regard or not really?
Damien: It would help you in that you could go to see private physicians privately and specialists, okay? And there would be private clinics. Okay? So it would help you to a point, but there are certain things that would have to be done within the public structure. They would not necessarily be available in a private structure. But I mean um, you know there’s also a misconception that health care in Italy is free. Okay? And that’s not necessarily the case because you know if you come to Italy on certain visas and you want to access the SSN, most regions will ask you to pay the yearly voluntary sum which usually goes between 2,000 to 2,850 euros per year. Okay? And particularly people that come from the US say, “Oh well that’s still a really good deal.” Okay? They, and you know health care in Italy is managed at the regional level, so you have to kind of also take that into consideration because certain medication that’s covered by the health care system is covered in some regions but it’s not covered in other regions. So you know it’s a nuanced topic, um but the general consensus even among Italians themselves is that the best health care in Italy tends to be in Emilia Romagna, Veneto, uh up in the north uh east Alto Adige.
Kathy: Mhm.
Damien: Lombardia. But again Lombardia is a very populated region so you’ve got issues with wait wait times.
Kathy: Yeah. Let’s go through, we don’t have much time, we’ve been, I could talk to you for hours and hours. You’re such a great resource for people. Um some places that are kind of on my radar, um Salerno in Campania.
Damien: Uh I just finished a case in Salerno and I think Salerno is extremely underrated. It’s got a great location, even if you’re just visiting Italy, uh it could be a good place to base yourself to go to the Amalfi Coast. Okay? I think Salerno will work really well for somebody who’s retired or somebody who has a business in a box.
Kathy: Yes, of course, yes, yes.
Damien: It will be fantastic. Okay? It’s um, it’s an underrated destination. I would I would absolutely encourage people to check out Salerno.
Kathy: Torino, which I love.
Damien: One of my favorite cities in in Italy.
Kathy: Why, why?
Damien: Because I think architecturally it’s just stunning. It almost looks a little bit like Paris, you can see you can see the French influence. You’ve got amazing apartment buildings with the most beautiful doors. Okay? I mean it’s a really elegant city. It’s got a culinary scene that matches…
Kathy: Oh the food is so good.
Damien: The food. The wine. Okay? Um again it’s a big city but not overwhelming.
Kathy: Right, it’s not Milan, which I think is also a little overwhelming to me.
Damien: I mean I know people that live in Torino but they work in Milan. Because there’s a train that like gets you there like in 70 minutes now. But outside of um Torino you you know people can look into Asti, they can look into Alessandria. I was in a beautiful town once called Saluzzo, really beautiful little town. And so Piemonte is another undiscovered jewel.
Kathy: Italy is just so rich when we go through all these places. Another another place just came to mind, Pescara.
Kathy: Oh, so my um, it’s very funny, my Italian fixer for my TV show, thinks I should live in Pescara. Um, I love the sea, the air quality. Why do you like Pescara?
Damien: Again, it’s another seaside city that doesn’t shut down.
Kathy: Right.
Damien: It’s got a fabulous airport, it’s very well connected, okay? Um, a person that I know who lives there speaks highly of the health care. Okay? Um, again, but I think it’s true of everywhere in Italy, is it’s got good food, again. Okay? But I think all the regions have their own wonderful cuisine. Um, and so, you know, there’s just so many places. I mean, you know, I think that, you know, when I, when I open and, you know, the travel section, and I see that, you know, they’re talking about Venice, they’re talking about Florence, I’m like, no, no, no, we need, we need to step back. We need to…
Kathy: Yeah, well that’s what I’ve done for 24 years now is there’s so much and I think there’s like a statistic that 90% or 70% are going to 4% of Italy. You know, of travelers are really just seeing there is so much. And again, that’s why I’m I’m trying to do more content on pinpointing where to live, because I think it’s oh, the choices are overwhelming.
Damien: There’s endless choice, but you have to go within yourself and ask yourself, honestly, okay, what do I need? You can’t jump on the latest trend.
Kathy: Yes, not what works for someone you see on TikTok, doesn’t work for everyone.
Damien: No. So, you know, you’re scrolling through TikTok, you see somebody who’s moved to a small town in Sicily, and they are very enthusiastic and whatever, and it could well work for you, but you need to do scouting trips, you know. You need there’s, and you need to go at different times of the year.
Kathy: Very important. Winter. You know I was just there in the winter, and I actually love Italy in the winter. But I will tell you, it was really gray this time, and it was really damp, and you know, I was like, hmm, you know it’s it’s about certain places and living there, and what it would be like in the winter.
Damien: Today was very gray in Rome. Okay? I mean we had good weather yesterday, today was it could have been the beginning of January. Okay? And so, you know, because, I mean yes, the weather is good in Italy, but it’s it’s not, you know, it’s not the Caribbean. So, you know, a small town in the mountains of Calabria or Sicily can get very cold in the winter. Okay?
Kathy: Oh that is true too. Like my ancestral hometown in Campania, it’s it’s rough in the winter, it’s cold. You know, and these…
Damien: I mean, you know, I used to have a corporate client at one point in Florence, and a lot of their employees used to go to live outside of Florence in these little villas, but I mean they got very cold in the winter, and and the heating bills were were astronomical, you know, so there were, you know, because they saw these houses in the summer and they had no idea what they were like in the winter.
Kathy: And people have to look at those energy ratings too. That’s a whole other story. But you know.
Damien: But, you know, if someone is contemplating moving to Italy, it it only makes sense that they ask, you know, where should I live? Okay? And that can only be answered by the person themselves. Okay? Do they need to work? Um, are they retired? Do they want to be near a major airport? Um, what’s the budget? Okay? Because the budget is very important. Okay? Um, you know, because I’ve seen people and they have a certain budget, but what they’re looking for is way and above beyond the budget. Okay. So…
Kathy: So then we enter into what I say, okay, what is the must haves, what are the must haves, and what are the would like to haves. Right. And then we have to narrow this down, and then we can start to put together a list of potential places for you to live in. But you still will have to visit those places.
Kathy: Well, I could talk to you forever. Um, it’s always a pleasure. If people would like to get more information on the services that you offer, where can they find that?
Damien: They can just send me an email directly. They can send an email to damien@damienofarrell.com. And I’ll be happy to address any questions that they have.
Kathy: Wonderful. You’re always a great resource. And then we’ll have show notes at dreamofitaly.com/podcast. Thank you again, Damien.
Damien: Thank you very much.
Kathy: I didn’t even get to, we’ll cut it here, I didn’t even get to like half the places. Uh, but I might email you, a few of the places that make the final list. I might email you for a quote or two, to see what you think. Um, always eye-opening, it really is. So, anyway, keep up the good work. We’ll keep… I’ll let you know when it’s up as a public one. Um, but I’ll be or when the magazine’s out I’ll send that to you and everything.
Damien: Sure. Yeah, yeah, and then further down the line we can do a follow-up one on some other places.
Kathy: Yeah, the thing is even the ones, I’m devoting like 20 pages, 20 it’s not even enough, you know I’m just scratching the surface. And um it’s fun.
Damien: Because the list is so long.
Kathy: The list is so, the list is so long. Okay.
Damien: Which is great because you see there’s so much demand and I almost start to feel like what’s weird is you know we work in this and we’re like, not that it create that I helped create a monster, but like it’s like whoa, I’m a little bit like whoa, that’s a lot of people moving.
Damien: But you see but what I’m also doing now is I’m also opening up to um specific groups of people, so I’m addressing people with physical issues, where would be good for them to live, okay? Um, single parent families. Okay? You know there’s a whole there are so many groups of people that no one that no one is really talking to. Okay? And so what would be the places for them that would be good to live in. People with family members with special needs. Okay?
Kathy: You know I see a lot of that, is there anywhere that’s good though? I see that on some of these boards…
Damien: Well I mean I she wasn’t my client but there was a woman who moved from Los Angeles to a town in Puglia with a daughter with major special needs. And it is a disaster. Okay?
Kathy: I read about another, they moved to Puglia also because there is like an international, and then and they moved back, it’s a tough, it’s tough.
Damien: But even in Rome, the international schools, it’s a little bit better now, they’re not really set up for kids with special needs. Okay? Right. And that’s Rome, so you can imagine in a in a in a small town. Okay? Um there was another couple too, it it was a same-sex couple with children, they moved again to a small place, it wasn’t fantastic. They moved to Milan, and now they’re much happier. Okay? So, you know, you’ve got to get, you know.
Kathy: People ask this question but you’ve got to you’ve got to ask those tough questions.
Damien: They’re trying to outsource the answer, but the answers within.
Damien: Yeah, and once you decide where you need to be, then it all starts to, you know, fall into place. You know? But, but as I said, I mean, further down the line we can look at other places. We can look at um, you know… other things that I think are that that’s why I got out of the Facebook situation because I didn’t feel that I could address certain things that were important in such a sea of confusion.
Kathy: Yes.
Damien: You know, it’s it’s just like this is this isn’t the way, this isn’t the way to go. Anyway, as always it’s been a pleasure to chat with you.
Kathy: No wonderful, maybe in touch, I’m making my own decisions. I might ask you for some feedback. Um, but I’ll be in touch about all this, take good care.
Damien: Absolutely. Have a good have a good day. Okay, bye bye.