Transcript with Show Notes Embedded:
Nicola Bertinelli: Parmigiano Reggiano is much more than a piece of cheese.
Kathy McCabe: Yeah.
Nicola Bertinelli:
It’s a good example of Italy. Every Italian feels Parmigiano Reggiano in the heart.
Kathy McCabe: This is Kathy McCabe. Welcome to the Dream of Italy Podcast. You know me from the PBS Travel series Dream of Italy and the award-winning website and publication. Join me as we explore the sights and sounds of bell’Italia. From the canals of Venice to the Piazzas of Puglia. From the fashion houses of Milan to the vineyards of Tuscany. Hop on, it’s going to be a great ride, andiamo. Parmigiano Reggiano, this 1,000 year old cheese considered the king of cheeses is one of Italy’s great treasures. I first explored the world of Parmigiano Reggiano with my friend, three Michelin star chef Massimo Bottura.
[01:06]
Massimo Bottura: One, two, three.
Kathy McCabe: Three. Parmigiano. I’m thrilled to be back in the region of Emilia-Romagna to meet Nicola Bertinelli, the president of the Parmigiano Reggiano Consortium.
Nicola Bertinelli: This product is made only with milk, rennet and we add a little bit of salt to make the rind. So, it’s a dream. It’s something magic because…
Kathy McCabe: Dream of Italy, dream of Parmigiano Reggiano. It’s only three ingredients.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yeah.
Kathy McCabe: Incredible. How many of these wheels do you have?
Nicola Bertinelli: Here inside this storaging room? 10,000. 10,000, but because we have to keep them for years.
Kathy McCabe: For years. What’s the oldest you have here?
Nicola Bertinelli: We are going to check in this storaging room, seven years old.
Kathy McCabe: That’s a good one. I’d like to try that some day.
Nicola Bertinelli: Oh, of course. And you have incredible feelings because the beauty is that changing the age, flavors and taste change too. So you can prefer a younger cheese than an older or vice versa, or it depends on the occasion. For a happy hour, my opinion, younger cheese is better. Or on grilled meat, grilled, making flakes of six, seven, eight years old Parmigiano Reggiano, incredible feelings.
Kathy McCabe: Bravo. And then Massimo, he uses the three year with the tortellini, the sauce he does. I dream of it every night. It’s incredible, his tortellini with the Parmigiano Reggiano sauce.
Nicola Bertinelli: Or if you want to, making a great risotto, melting the risotto.
Kathy McCabe: Yes.
Nicola Bertinelli: In my opinion, the 30 month is the best.
Kathy McCabe: The 30 month.
Nicola Bertinelli: Is the best. So this is the point. It’s like a good wine. There is not the best wine.
Kathy McCabe: A perfect wine. It’s what you’re eating it with.
Nicola Bertinelli: There is the wine good in the combo, in the combination with the food. They say the cheese, you have a perfect cheese for…
Kathy McCabe: So it’s an art also.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yeah.
Kathy McCabe: Yeah, as everything is in Italy.
[03:39]
Nicola Bertinelli: Look here we have many.
Kathy McCabe: Oh, now is the time.
Nicola Bertinelli: Parmigiano Reggiano aging.
Kathy McCabe: So explain them to me.
Nicola Bertinelli: So here you have a 30 month, a 36-month-old, 48 and 63. Here you can combine an age with a special product. For example, the 30 with strawberries, the 36 with walnuts, the 63 with grapes and balsamic vinegar with cherry and balsamic vinegar with strawberries.
Kathy McCabe: So cherries are very famous from this area too.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yes, we are close to Vignola, you know? Where they make amazing cherries.
Kathy McCabe: Which one should I start with the young?
Nicola Bertinelli: Yeah.
Kathy McCabe: Go young?
Nicola Bertinelli: Like always. And going up to the oldest one.
Kathy McCabe: Okay. A nice piece. What should I be smelling for?
Nicola Bertinelli: I suggest you to break the piece of cheese and smelling it in function of the age. You should feel different flavors. For example, here I feel the fresh butter.
Kathy McCabe: Yeah. It smells light and creamy.
Nicola Bertinelli: And just melt the cheese in the mouth and close your eyes and just dream.
Kathy McCabe: And dream. It’s very smooth, but it needs a little, if you want to make it a little more exciting and put the balsamic on it right? These are the two, three incredible products.
Nicola Bertinelli: As my friend Massimo Bottura says.
Kathy McCabe: Our friend.
Nicola Bertinelli: As you know, in his blood. It’s the balsamic, it’s his blood. I think we have a clip of this.
[05:41]
Massimo Bottura: You see?
Kathy McCabe: I remember it’s on your arm.
Massimo Bottura: You see? There muscles?
Kathy McCabe: It’s all Parmigiano.
Massimo Bottura: Parmigiano.
Kathy McCabe: I see.
Massimo Bottura: But here? You see balsamic vinegar. You see? Balsamic smell, it’s balsamic.
Kathy McCabe: I think it’s…
Massimo Bottura: Yeah, I told you told.
Kathy McCabe: You’re bleeding it out.
Massimo Bottura: I’m bleeding balsamico.
[05:57]
Kathy McCabe: Okay. I’m going to try it with the balsamico. That is really good.
Nicola Bertinelli: And, in my opinion, with walnut, fantastico.
[06:14]
Kathy McCabe: Let’s go back to the beginning. Parmigiano Reggiano, what is it and what’s in it? What makes it up?
Nicola Bertinelli: Parmigiano Reggiano is this amazing cheese and all produced only in a spot of land.
Kathy McCabe: Around here
Nicola Bertinelli: In Italy. Why? Because here the climate and the soil composition lets some really special good microflora bacteria growing on the grass. And what we do is keeping these bacteria alive, producing the hay. So from the grass we dry it, we produce the hay, and we must feed cows with that hay, and these good bacteria from the hay go to the milk and the cheese maker simply by the rennet coagulates this milk, having this cheese. So what happens inside the cheese is made by this good microflora that fermenting lactose, casein, then milk components produces these amazing taste and flavors. It’s something…
Kathy McCabe: It’s so simple, but that’s Italy and Italian products. They’re so simple yet, so rich and sophisticated and many different tastes. But it’s only from this area.
Nicola Bertinelli: And don’t forget, no additives, no preservatives.
Kathy McCabe: You can’t put anything in it.
Nicola Bertinelli: It’s just the nature that is doing this amazing process.
Kathy McCabe: How do you think Parmigiano Reggiano represents Italy?
Nicola Bertinelli: Parmigiano Reggiano. Every Italian feels Parmigiano Reggiano in the heart. So everybody owns a little piece of Parmigiano-Reggiano.
Kathy McCabe: Has some.
Nicola Bertinelli: But it’s also, it’s not just business because it’s a product from a land, but it’s not one company. You have…
Kathy McCabe: I love that because in this world, the modern world, we have huge companies.
Nicola Bertinelli: We are many small companies spread in this land where we can make this product, thanks God, I mean because this is the environment.
Kathy McCabe: Does the weather affect it?
Nicola Bertinelli: Of course.
Kathy McCabe: With the grass.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yes. And, we are also worried about climate change.
Kathy McCabe: So do you notice it getting warmer then?
Nicola Bertinelli: Yes. Without water.
Kathy McCabe: Water.
Nicola Bertinelli: You don’t produce grass. You don’t have the grass.
Kathy McCabe: For the cows.
Nicola Bertinelli: And so we are worried about this and we are working a lot on it. For example, in barns, okay, you have all systems to cool down the temperature, you have water. And during the summer, when you open the barn, you see cows don’t go out because it’s too hot. So they go out in the evening.
Kathy McCabe: Yeah, like people.
Nicola Bertinelli: So we have to take care of animal welfare during the day.
Kathy McCabe: So you keep them cool.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yeah, because the reason it’s getting warmer.
Kathy McCabe: Hot, warmer and warmer.
Nicola Bertinelli: And we are creating stuff to collect water because we have to collect water when it rains.
Kathy McCabe: So it’s all about irrigation.
Nicola Bertinelli: Because the land…
Kathy McCabe: In case it doesn’t…
Nicola Bertinelli: Is becoming drier. Climate change.
Kathy McCabe: It affects everything, it really does.
[10:24]
Nicola Bertinelli: Parmigiano-Reggiano is made once a day, adding inside these bags. Evening’s milk and morning’s milk because you need so much milk to make one piece of cheese that you have to add both, the milking.
Kathy McCabe: In the morning and in the evening.
Nicola Bertinelli: Correct.
Kathy McCabe: So how much milk makes cheese, a kilo?
Nicola Bertinelli: To make one kilo of cheese, you need all but 14, 15 kilos of milk.
Kathy McCabe: Oh my God.
Nicola Bertinelli: Look at it. Now, the cheese maker is going to collect the curd from the bottom of the [inaudible 00:11:09], using these huge wood spoon.
Kathy McCabe: That is quite a wood spoon. And this is the way they’ve always done this for hundreds of years or a thousand years.
Nicola Bertinelli: Now they are collecting the curd, a new cheese.
Kathy McCabe: Is being born.
Nicola Bertinelli: Is born. Oh, Lala! Look.
Kathy McCabe: It’s huge.
Nicola Bertinelli: You need of 1,000 kilos of milk.
Kathy McCabe: 1,000 kilos of milk.
Nicola Bertinelli: To make it. This is the concentrate of 1,000 kilos of milk.
Kathy McCabe: Oh, my God, look how big that is.
Nicola Bertinelli: And you see that the shape of the curd is the shape of the bottom of the [inaudible 00:11:59].
Kathy McCabe: Yes. Incredible. He’s going to cut it.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yes, because this stuff is called fagotto. We break the curd in two pieces and from now you have the two wheels and every single step is the same every day since…
Kathy McCabe: 365 days, that’s what I hear.
[12:33]
Nicola Bertinelli: Per year. Parmigiano Reggiano is one of the few things that is good in taste and is good for healthy. Few things, I like that.
Kathy McCabe: There’s nothing left that’s good for us. So why is it healthy?
Nicola Bertinelli: Because, so eating 100 grams of Parmigiano Reggiano, you eat 30 grams of proteins.
Kathy McCabe: Proteins, good.
Nicola Bertinelli: Like eating 100 grams of beef.
Kathy McCabe: And how can, especially Americans when they’re shopping, how do they know? Because we have Parmesan. It’s not the same.
Nicola Bertinelli: No, it’s not the same.
[13:07]
Kathy McCabe: So how do you tell people to look for it? What are some tips for them?
Nicola Bertinelli: You know what, this is a really good point because unfortunately when you go to the store, you have a lot of confusion because you see Italian flags on products that don’t come from Italy. So, you have to look for a black and gold logo of Parmigiano Reggiano with the writing Parmigiano Reggiano.
Kathy McCabe: Not just Parmigiano, not Parmesan, the two words.
Nicola Bertinelli: Parmigiano Reggiano. And if you buy a piece with the rind.
Kathy McCabe: Oh, you’ll see it.
Nicola Bertinelli: There is a dot, a pin dot writing.
Kathy McCabe: Yes. And every producer uses that.
Nicola Bertinelli: Yes. That this is really, really typical. So, you buy a piece with the rind, look for the pin dot writing and always the logo, the black and gold logo with the writing, Parmigiano Reggiano.
Kathy McCabe: What are some places Americans can buy this?
Nicola Bertinelli: Costco is probably the largest retailer in the world selling Parmigiano Reggiano. So you can find the real one. As I said, the problem is don’t be mislead.
Kathy McCabe: By the flag or by the colors we’ve seen or an Italian name.
Nicola Bertinelli: Or Torre di Pisa or Colosseum picture on the package.
Kathy McCabe: You would never put that on that here.
Nicola Bertinelli: Absolutely not. So, spend some minutes.
Kathy McCabe: You have to look.
Nicola Bertinelli: To read carefully the label.
[14:58]
Kathy McCabe: You have to look. And so you’re the president of the consortium of Parmigiano Reggiano. How many producers are there? What is it made up of and what do you try to do in the world?
Nicola Bertinelli: So, the consortium counts 303 members. 303 cheese factories. But these cheese factories are linked to 2,300 small farmers producing the milk that you must use to make Parmigiano Reggiano. These 303 members produce only Parmigiano Reggiano in the cheese factory. So they cannot do…
Kathy McCabe: Oh no other cheeses or products.
Nicola Bertinelli: Absolutely no.
Kathy McCabe: It’s very pure.
Nicola Bertinelli: And we are trying to protect and promote worldwide the brand Parmigiano Reggiano. It doesn’t exist, Parmigiano Reggiano Incorporated. So it’s not.
Kathy McCabe: One.
Nicola Bertinelli: One company. This is a land brand. There is half of Emilia-Romagna and a small piece of Lombardia producing Parmigiano Reggiano. This brand lets 50,000 families having a job. So when you buy a piece of Parmigiano Reggiano, you do something for these 50,000 families, not just for companies.
Kathy McCabe: It’s not one big company, it’s lots of families I’m sure.
Nicola Bertinelli: It’s a territory product. And two thirds of this territory is hilly side, mountain side. So without Parmigiano Reggiano, that mountains wouldn’t be preserved because you have people then taking care of that hilly side of the region. I have a dream.
Kathy McCabe: Tell me, I love dreams.
[17:15]
Nicola Bertinelli: Making a trip in the United States and in every state making a special recipe.
Kathy McCabe: Oh, that’s a great idea.
Nicola Bertinelli: With Parmigiano Reggiano as ingredient. So depending on the state, you have a local dish, and using a specific Parmigiano Reggiano aging or breeding or type to let’s say give our contribution to that flavor. What do you think about it?
Kathy McCabe: I love this idea. I love this idea. You can sign me up. I will help you out, and I’m thinking, I live in Colorado and we are famous for our peaches. I was like, hmm, would Parmigiano go well with some peaches?
Nicola Bertinelli: And this is incredible because you can think about soterna. So you have this sweet and the salty.
Kathy McCabe: Yes.
Nicola Bertinelli: So soterna is a great combination for Parmigiano. For example, 60 months or eight years old with peaches could be something really sexy.
Kathy McCabe: Absolutely. Everyone’s looking for something new. You have had this caseificio since 1895, your company.
[18:35]
Nicola Bertinelli: Correct. I’m the fourth generation.
Kathy McCabe: What does it mean to you? I’ve met your father inside. He’s been doing this his whole life, now you. And that’s the thing about Italy and about Italian products that Americans really cherish is there’s a very personal connection.
Nicola Bertinelli: This is an Italian beauty, I mean family business. I think many Italian companies are still…
Kathy McCabe: They are. I read a statistic.
Nicola Bertinelli: Managed by families.
Kathy McCabe: It’s quite high.
Nicola Bertinelli: And this is really good in my opinion because, in a huge company you can have amazing managers, amazing CEO. But the vision, the passion to make something unique because it’s something coming from your heart. Then only a family culture, a family tradition, passing from the father and the mother to the son and the daughter. This passion can be carried to the future. And I’m the fourth generation, I have two daughters. I hope at least one of them.
Kathy McCabe: Yes, takes it over.
Nicola Bertinelli: Taking care of it.
[20:07]
Kathy McCabe: I think one of the ways that Americans get to know Parmigiano Reggiano is coming to Italy. So, if people come to Emilia-Romagna are many of these producers set up for people to visit?
Nicola Bertinelli: Nowadays, you can customize your visit. If you go to the Parmigiano Reggiano Consortium website, you have many options. And then you can, how do you say choose or choice?
Kathy McCabe: Choose.
Nicola Bertinelli: Thank you.
Kathy McCabe: Choose.
Nicola Bertinelli: You can choose your choice.
Kathy McCabe: Yeah, exactly. So you can see which ones you can visit.
Nicola Bertinelli: Of course. And visiting a cheese maker, a caseificio in a province, and then spend your time in that province. In Parma, you have also other [inaudible 00:20:59] indications. You have music, Verdi, Toscanini, you can go in Modena, and of course balsamic vinegar also, fast cars.
Kathy McCabe: Fast cars, slow food, fast cars. You’ve got Pagani, Maserati.
Nicola Bertinelli: Lamborghini.
Kathy McCabe: Ferrari.
Nicola Bertinelli: Ferrari, Ducati and stay in the province visiting also farmers producing the milk, but the main thing from my point of view is knowing people.
Kathy McCabe: Yes.
Nicola Bertinelli: Knowing people. You have 303 cheese factories. That means 303 cheese makers, cheese producers. And every Parmigiano Reggiano is different from others because you have a specific system.
Kathy McCabe: Can you taste the difference if you’re tasting yours?
Nicola Bertinelli: Of course. When around the world, Kathy, you find something fake. Okay, it’s a pity for the Parmigiano Reggiano producers. Because when you have the fake, that room is occupied by something fake and not the real, but the real victim is the citizen, is the consumer. Because when a person around the world buys Parmigiano Reggiano thinking to buy the real one and the product is not real and the experience is bad, that person never is going to buy the product once again in their life. So it’s in my opinion, mainly a consumer, a citizen problem than a producer.
Kathy McCabe: So is this the biggest part of your job? Is to figure out ways to get the public to understand what’s real and what’s not?
Nicola Bertinelli: It is consorzio. So Parmigiano Reggiano is 1,000 years old. Consorzio was founded in 1934, so into…
Kathy McCabe: 90 years.
Nicola Bertinelli: 90 years ago. When 28 producers went together to have more strength being together, and they started a great job to protect the name Parmigiano Reggiano from imitations. At the time, Parmesan, reggianito, parmesão.
Kathy McCabe: Do you fight a lot of trademark type… Are you aggressive with people using the name or it’s the label or anything like that around the world?
Nicola Bertinelli: Unfortunately.
Kathy McCabe: That takes money as anything does.
Nicola Bertinelli: A lot of money. And in the European Union it’s really rare to find…
Kathy McCabe: A fake.
Nicola Bertinelli: A fake.
Kathy McCabe: So in the US though it’s more…
Nicola Bertinelli: You know what? I give you a couple of numbers just to figure out the phenomenon. Make 100, the production of Parmigiano Reggiano, 43% is exported. Make 100, that 43, United States are 25%. Make 100, the market of hard cheese, let’s say Parmesan in the United States, the real Parmigiano Reggiano is less than 5%. So this tells you that…
Kathy McCabe: That 95% are not the real thing.
[25:04]
Nicola Bertinelli: It’s artisanal. And we open cheese factory doors to welcome friends around the world to know more about Parmigiano Reggiano. And we are lucky because this land give you the opportunity to see many other things. Music, cars, castles. We have many beautiful castles.
Kathy McCabe: I know, there’s some beautiful castles here. The opera, as you said. And one thing I want to make a point of, because people always wonder, can you carry it back with you to America? You can. Because when you have it vacuum packed, I’ve taken some home.
Nicola Bertinelli: Absolutely you can.
Kathy McCabe: So you can buy it. It’s an easy thing to put in your suitcase and bring home. And when you visited the producer, you feel this connection.
Nicola Bertinelli: And eating the cheese when you are at home, you still live…
Kathy McCabe: Have the memories.
Nicola Bertinelli: The experience.
[26:04]
Kathy McCabe: Yes. My final question, how many years have you been the president of the Consorzio?
Nicola Bertinelli: Eight years.
Kathy McCabe: Is there something that just surprises you about Parmigiano Reggiano or about the places in the world that you go to?
Nicola Bertinelli: I was surprised by the love.
Kathy McCabe: That’s true. [inaudible 00:26:28].
Nicola Bertinelli: The people around the world have to Parmigiano Reggiano. So Parmigiano Reggiano is much more than a piece of cheese. It’s a good example of Italy in the world. Because, you make, of course an amazing product, a good product in the mouth for taste, but you are also taking care of a community and you share the value in this community. This product cannot be done in any other place in the world.
Kathy McCabe: Anywhere else.
Nicola Bertinelli: Then if you create value, you share this value here, and we work a lot to welcome people from the world to show them how this model is a win-win model. Then this surprised me, this love to this product that is much more than [inaudible 00:27:43] cheese.
Kathy McCabe: No. It represents Italy, and it represents families and it represents history. Well, another toast to our favorite cheese.
Nicola Bertinelli: Grazie Kathy.
Kathy McCabe: Grazie dei. My thanks to Nicola Bertinelli for a wonderful visit. To learn more about Parmigiano Reggiano, visit parmigianoreggiano.com. For more about this podcast episode and show notes, visit dreamofitaly.com/18.